difference, why are there 30 republican governors, even after the 2012 election, including in a lot of swing states, wisconsin, idaho, ohio, you talk about kasich, florida, virginia, all those states obama won but republicans now hold the governorships there. it's because governors lay out optimistic visions for the futures for their state. we have the courage to act on it. and there are people like paul ryan and others trying to do that, but overall we've got to find a way to have our republican friends in washington be branded as the ones who have big bold ideas to move the country forward. >> what do you say to them, though? it's a tactical debate but it's becoming a front-page debate. a bunch of senators. senator cruz, senator paul, and so forth. senator rubio. they want to defund obama care. a bunch of house members do too. that could wind up shutting down the federal government. do you make the point, as senator jim demint says, or do you stay away from shutdowns? >> oh, i think shutdowns are not a good move at all. i think most americans are center-right like we are and want limited government but they want a government that works.